What is the Difference?
Between Calvinism and Reformed? What are the similarities? Please. If you have simple answers without two hundred links to explain it, post an answer here. Having been told I sadly lack knowledge in this subject, I beg you to inform me.
My understanding of Calvinism is the 5-point Tulip. It doesn't go very deep. It's kinda like the Mistletoe in this tree. It clings to the side of all I am. I don't know why. It is sucking the life out of my understanding of God and the purpose of His church. I admit it. What is this all about? I do not understand Dr. Tom Ascol or his group of followers. I do not understand why all Southern Baptist Churches need to be "reformed". I do not understand what Dr. Ascol means by "reformed". I do not understand where he places me because of that. Where do I fit in? I do not understand what he expects of me or my church. Where do we fit in? Can we fit into the puzzle? I'm so tired. If you have answers, feel free to post them here. I may not dialog much. I admit upfront, I am ignorant. I may not have much to offer in way of knowledge. I am seeking. selahV
9 comments:
"Calvinism" and "Reformed" mean roughly the same things, if you take into account that each one has a range of meaning of its own.
"Reformed" technically refers to the churches that are descended from the branch of the Reformation led by John Calvin in Geneva, Switzerland. Communication wasn't too easy during the 1500s, so by the time the leaders of the Protestant reformation got together to try to join forces, they found they had insuperable differences. Most churches in the Reformed tradition go by the name "Reformed" or "Presbyterian."
"Calvinist" refers to the theology of John Calvin, embodied largely in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, and the theological tradition that developed from him. So "Reformed" and "Calvinist" should go hand in hand, but one can have a "Calvinist" theology without going to a "Reformed" church. There is a bit of a difference in nuance, as well. "Calvinist" tends to be the term that opponents use to describe that group; people within the group tend to prefer the term, "Reformed."
The central distinction of both the Reformed tradition and Calvinist theology is a strict view of unconditional, individual election to salvation. This is the view that God has chosen, from before the world began, all of the individual people who would end up being saved. It's based largely on Ephesians 1-2, Romans 9, and John 6 and 10, and on a view of God's sovereignty that does not permit Him doing anything "contingently"--i.e., as a response to anything in His creation. Since this is the distinctive position of both the Reformed tradition and Calvinist theology, both terms are generally identified with this view.
Baptist churches that insist that they are "Reformed" are something of a mystery to me. The Baptist tradition really developed from the Puritan movement in the Anglican church, with influences from both the Reformed tradition (mainly from Scottish Presbyterianism) and the Anabaptist movement (the ancestors of Mennonites, Amish, Quakers, etc.). There were both "Particular" Baptists, who had a Calvinistic view of election, and "General" Baptists, who thought that God's election was not individuals, but the group of people defined by faith in Christ. If Baptist churches were really "Reformed," they would go back to infant baptism. Baptists who claim to be "Reformed" are really only Reformed in the narrow sense of having a Calvinistic view of election.
I would say to you a very simple - do not worry with it! I know many of my Calvin friends will not like this comment but really, just don't worry with it.
As one who has studied this and find too many contradictions, I have decided for myself that i am neither calvin nor armeniesim - I belong to God and I must tell people about the gift of Jesus.
Southern Baptist are not reformed and do not need to be. I have many friends who are both and that is ok with me. I just do not get it.
Keith: It's late, but I can see that what I have been thinking is pretty close to what you are saying. I never thought about how slow communication was in the 1500's. I imagine that is still true today, even in our technological fast-track. This is why I am having so much difficulty grasping all the concepts. They change from person to person. I am so grateful that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. And I'm glad my faith and trust is in Him and not something that someone says I need to be or not to be.
Thanks Keith for taking time to answer this. selahV
Tim: You are a sweetheart! When I read your comment, I cried. When I think of my Saviour and the fruit of His Spirit, I want my fruit to be found fresh and without worms. The fact that someone thinks I must stack my fruit in a certain way to ascertain it being a bowl of fruit is what boggles my mind.
"...love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness; gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law."
If God's Word says there is no law, then how can man? Isn't all the system of thoughts just man's attempt at knowing as much as God? It's something I considered alot when I read the book of Job.
I know what I know, what I don't know, I will either learn or God will reveal it to me in Heaven. Or...I don't need to know it at all. It's the Spirit's job to complete the good work which was started in me.
I truly appreciate you taking the time to answer my question, Tim. And it gives me a great deal of peace of mind tonite. SelahV
Selahv
I think Keith's answer very smooth. I like it. On the other hand, Tim has a great point. As for me, I never even bother with it :)
With that, I am...
Peter
Peter: Thanks for adding your advice to Tim's and approval of Keith's comments. After I posted this question, I've received very kind emails from a few folks over at Dr. Ascol's. And I've received a pittance of ire. Including one I posted on an earlier question regarding my question on the various Graces folks believe in.
Some at Founders have chosen to engage me in conversations which promote understanding, kindness and dialog. I don't know that I'll ever "GET" this, but I'm bound to try and understand--even if I find I do not agree. I think I learned that from you, dear Peter. selahV
Those are great comments SelahV.
I would class myself as 4 and half points ( not sure about limited atonement. I can see why theologically I just keep running against 1John 2:2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.
which I would say is the only unreconcilable verse).
While I would perceive myself as reformed, and understand things theologically that way, I really hesitate to call my self either reformed or calvinistic. In fact, I like very much what Tim G said. Mnay times, whether it be on the issue of calvinism, or dispensationalism (hey I am dispensational too!) or pragmatism or whatever ism, people can get way too hung up on themselves and forget about the Lord Jesus. I know many many of the finest pastors and preachers are not reformed.. and I appreciate them immensely and count them some of my closest friends.. I am just glad they can see past my foibles in being reformed and premill and we can enjoy fellowship in the gospel together.
From a reformed view, there is an understanding that all things are under God's control (Rom 8:28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.)
because God is Sovereign.
It lets me allow the Lord to be on the Planning committee, and me in the grandstands praising Him.
If you examine my preaching only occassionally would you find something getting close to "High Calvinism". I guess I became Calvinistic because I was weaned on Spurgeon's sermons as a teenager (I grew up under a somewhat liberal pastor after my conversion as a teenager).
I doubt oif many in my congre4gation would know I am reformed, they probably think I am just a plain old (maybe not so old.. older than Tim G and youger than Les P another 5 pointer) Bible preacher (and I prefer it that way).
Every Blessing SelahV.
and Congratulations on the baby!!
:)
Steve
Grosey: I am Whose I am. I don't get all the rest of it, so I just try to hang in there with that and rest on the fingertips of God, if you know what I mean.
The how doesn't concern me as much as the when. When must occur or it doesn't matter how. God will do His work in a life and it is up to them to respond or walk on. I guess that puts me back in the court of a Christcalvist. Hey...new label. I don't see that it matters to Jesus. If it does, He will still allow me to partake of the inheritance. Because His blood took care of everything else. Agree? selahV
Yep agreed... :)
Christ matters above all.
Steve
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