BELOW IS A DIALOG I have asked Seth to complete with me on my site, if he chooses to do so. Should anyone who reads this have comment or an answer to my questions, feel free to jump in.
Seth: Goodness, I believe I stirred up a bit of agitation in you with my questions. I am truly sorry. As to my "invitation at the end of the service" question, I meant absolutely no criticism toward you, if that is indeed what Calvinists and Reformed Churches do. I was just wanting to know if what I "thought" I read about the invitation time was true. And if so, how does one, be he/she a lost or a non-Calvinist, get to become part of the Calvinist or Reformed community of believers?
Please don't take my question as a point of criticism of doctrine or of what you see the "service" of the Lord's day to be. Nay, nay, my brother. I'm just wanting to know some stuff. I have no idea what you do in your services on Sunday. And until your answer to my post, I had no idea that Calvinists considered the Lord's Day for the regenerated, sanctified and reformed thinkers only. Which does bring me to a second question, if you would be so kind as to indulge me.
How do you segregate the lost pre-elected from the saved post-elected in your congregations?
I was in an integrated worship assembly when I was saved. So go figure. It was even on a Sunday morning. And the preacher was preaching about Jesus dying on the cross and how He suffered for the sinners of the world. And for some reason I thought that was me. So when the preacher asked people if they'd like to have a relationship with the crucified Lord, I for some reason found myself walking down the aisle as they were singing, "Lord, I'm coming home." I guess I thought I'd been away from home and was finally coming home.
You said, "The Lord's Day service is NOT for the sinner but for the saved to worship and exalt Christ and Christ alone, this, by the way, is where the "seeker churches" are way off base."
You have opened another point of curiosity for me. What is a "seeker church"? Is it what I just described in my explanation of how I became a follower of Jesus and a baptized Southern Baptist in Connecticut? SelahV
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6 comments:
SelahV
Sorry if I seemed agitated in any way, as I was not, that is the problem writing and not speaking. Sorry that I seemed agitated in any way for I was truly not. And just for the future I want you to know that I don't usually get agitated when speaking about doctrine so please don't take my comments in any way as being answered agitated...
by the way...I am also from Oklahoma, from 9 months to 12 years of age I lived there. Lexington, Purcell and Lawton...
"I was just wanting to know if what I "thought" I read about the invitation time was true. And if so, how does one, be he/she a lost or a non-Calvinist, get to become part of the Calvinist or Reformed community of believers?"
First, just to let you know. I am not of the camp, as I guess there are some, that if you don't believe in Calvinism that you are not saved...to me that is ludicrous. You are saved only if you believe in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, Faith Alone.
As far as how does one come to Christ without an alter call? Everyone in the Bible came to Christ WITHOUT an alter call. There is none in the Bible. What I believe is that the sound biblical preaching and teaching of the word will change lives and the moving and drawing of the Holy Spirit will cause someone to repent, not an alter call. The alter call started with Phinney and he called is the "anxiety seat" He started it to get more "conversions" I just don't see the reason for the alter call. I have been born and raised a Souther Baptist (most of my family is SB) and even I was not saved because of an alter call I was saved by the teaching of one of my mentor's and he personally asked me where I stood with Christ.
"How do you segregate the lost pre-elected from the saved post-elected in your congregations?"J
I didn't mean to say that when we congregate for the Lord's Day that we would not WELCOME sinners into the sanctuary nor would we segregate them in any way. But when we preach it is for two reasons, to exalt Christ and to equip believers. Do we still speak to the sinners during the message for repentance? Yes, of course, do we still convict those who are not a part of the universal Church of Jesus Christ, yes of course. Do we surround the preaching though to the lost? No, and I don't see that in Scripture. We worship Christ on Sunday, as do most here, and you cannot truly worship Christ unless you are one of Christ's own. Notice, I did NOT say unless you are a Calvinist.
Also, as far as a "seeker church" Seeker churches, like Rick Warren's church in California, are set up to make sure that the sinner feels comfortable. Don't use the word "sin" and don't have long prayers cause they don't like that, don't dress up because that is too stuffy, have dramas, have short sermons, etc, etc. The point of the seeker church is to make church as much as you can "comfortable" for those who aren't saved. That is NOT church. Church is for Christ and His exaltation and to build and to equip believers. Ephesians 4:12 points to this for us. Will I still have a time in the service where I ask the sinner to repent? Yes, but the focus on the sermon is in the explanation of the word of God. See Ezra 7:10 and also Nehemiah 8:1-8 for these reasons.
Also, I am not reformed but I am a Calvinist in soteriology.
SelahV.
I would be a lot like an Al Mohler or John MacArthur in beliefs. If you want to "peg me into a hole" of sorts.
Seth: by no means do I want to peg you into a hole. And to be honest, I have no clue what Al Mohler is really like, other than the blogposts and his site. I truly appreciate you taking the incredible amount of time you have in answering my lame questions.
I am really new to all this. About three months in penetrating search of what Calvinists and reformed churches think. And how they conduct their services. (I am trying not to paint everyone with the same brush. Am finding out there are a bunch of folks who lean toward Calvin in one way and lean toward Arminius in another and still "call" themselves all kinds of other things, including Calvinists.
Funny, though, I always thought that the way you described how you preached and what you preached about was how I've observed our worship in every church I've ever been in. Only difference that I can see is the invitation thing.
I have no problem with anyone not doing that, just wondered how you got people to "join" (pardon the word if it is not acceptable) your churches. How do you know when someone becomes part of your congregation?
I realize all of the scriptures you cited in which Jesus met people where they were have nothing to do with worship in the church setting in which we observe today. BUT...now here comes that eternal but that blows through my mind:
If that is the premise in which Calvinists take to not have altar calls, then do they also not have tithes and offering baskets passed? I'm REALLY ignorant here, dear Seth.
On Sunday morning or whenever you worship, what criteria is used to determine how the worship time is conducted? My husband has preached for years in different churches. We have not had a writ of complete agenda. However, most churches, have singing, special music, sermons, offering, testimonies, invitation. None are necessarily in any particular order. And yes, we do offer a time for folks to come forward to pray, to follow Christ in baptism, accept His salvation, be re-united with brethren when they've gone astray, and even change churches...albeit sadly, from another one in the city, versus one because they have relocated to our town.
I don't think the "how" one comes to Christ is the crux of everyone's banter in the blogworld as much as the doctrinal divides. But I am one who wants to know the who, what, when, where, how, and why of just about everything from church to planting gardens. It's the writer in me, I'm sure. And also the desire to communicate more fully in a positive constructive and edifying way. I am an encourager by gift and a writer by talent and an edifier by command. So I do my best to try and understand folks...rather than point fingers at them.
I like you, Seth. Thanks for chatting with me. selahV
Good questions. Our service would be a lot like yours. worship, announcements, Scripture reading, collection of gifts (passing the plate) worship, preaching and ending prayer.
To be honest, I don't know how passing a plate has to do with an alter call. But we really do to make it a part of the worship service since it is a part of our worhip as believers to our God. So we want to incorporate giving as much in our worship service as the "giving" of song to God.
As far as joining the church we invite them to speak to the pastor or to the elders. We also, as leadership, will make sure that we are communing with those who come through the doors by having them over or just simply walking up to them after service and speaking to them.
As far as the "how" in our services, we try and keep it in line with Scripture as much as we can. I mentioned Nehemiah 8:1-8 as reference to "what" we preach, Paul also spoke of making sure an entire letter is read at the end of Colossians for example, so that is why we preach through books instead of topical. We sing, because we know that pleases God, we have prayer time before church, we know that pleases God, we give our money to Him, we know that pleases God, we preach, because that is why we are there. Beyond that I would be hard pressed to add anything else to the service.
If you get a chance read about Charles Finney and his "anxious seat" it was all derived to get more "converts." We need to be careful not to point to numbers but to quality, and to that I mean true converts to Christ.
Most alter calls that I have been around, and being a Southern Baptist I have seen plenty, it is a "persuasion" of sorts to tug at the heart strings. The old "play Just as I am one more time, cause I feel as though there is one out there who needs to repent" I just don't like playing on emotions but on real conviction.
Spurgeon said it once. If someone is ready to repent on Sunday in the service he should also be ready to repent Monday in my office. True repentance doesn't have to be at the end of a service playing "Just as I am" which by the way is a great song.
I enjoyed the Q.& A.! Seth has replied to you in a very similar way that I would have if I was the one you were talking to. That's blogging...just jump right in there!
Concerning "Calvinism"...there are some dishonest (well...it's either dishonest, or ignorant) men out there in pulpits who make gross caricatures of the doctrines of the sovereignty of God, original sin, election, perseverance, providence etc.
I would not consider myself a "calvinist" if you mean that I believe like him in all his doctrine. I believe paedobaptism is in error. His strong feelings concerning semites would not be shared by me. HOWEVER, if one is referring to his (Calvins)"points" that were presented to refute the remonstrants, then yes, we would be on the same soteriological page.
Just as there are those who will not take the time to FAIRLY represent (or flat out lie because they KNOW they are misrepresenting the truth)what they are bashing,...THERE ARE those (SOME)who call themselves "Calvinist's" who are NOT exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit in their presentation of Christ & HIS doctrine. BOTH are sad, and hurtful to the church. I am...
...Grateful For Grace!
Bro. Robin: That's where I stand on the doctrinal line. I'm not so much worried about it, though. I truly believe we are not suppose to "know" all things--or even be able to explain half of the things of God. Wouldn't that be putting ourselves on His level if we did? And trying to attain all the answers seems a bit like chasing one's tail. I am having a tough time with the thoughts of reformed thinking because I see it this way: Adhering to a set of points as the way "of" Salvation rather than clinging to THE WAY "to" salvation, seems to be at odds with, (what I understand in my little research) their doctrine of Sovereignty. The mere adherance to an idea, a theology, a doctrine for a roadmap TO the Doorway of Heaven...is in itself a dependence on oneself to be able to "comprehend". Although I know they say they do not depend upon their own comprehension but that indued and infused and inbred in them by His Spirit, I see it as still clinging to some "thing" other than Someone.
Thanks for stopping by. I didn't realize it was this site that you'd commented on. Thanks for your input. selahV P.S. I've just come to realize there is an "emerging" faith and church movement too. And my brain is simply not big enough for all this stuff. LOL.
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